What's the Catch? - Limitations and Expectations

Axohoop 2018-09-07 12:24:21 UTC #1

Hi All. Very pleased to be a new user.
Maybe this is a typical noob comment, but having had the thing for a few days, played some of the demos, and made a start with Jan's book, I'm honestly struggling to believe I now have this much functionality to hand for so little cost. And I just ordered a new set of headphones (costing four times the price of Axoloti Core) partly for the purpose of checking that the sound quality is as good as it seems with my exiting, low-end monitoring set-up.
Is this all too good to be true? Everything has limitations, which I know I will discover for myself (and work within), but I am curious to know what they might be. So, for example....
Does an Axoloti with a sophisticated and competently assembled patch (and a midi controller/keyboard) bear comparison with presets and patches on midrange hardware units, e.g. polysynths such as Korg Prologue, DSI Rev2, Novation Peak and so on? (Of course I understand that these would be advanced patches - but is it possible to get up to that level of sophistication and sound quality)?
I'm particularly excited about building my own analogue drum machine. Putting sequencing to one side, am I going to be able to produce sounds and variations at the same level as, say, a DRM1, or Rytm, or Tanzbar?
If the answer to such questions turns out to be 'yes, pretty much', is the equation more along the lines of 'it can do almost anything, BUT the price is that you need to invest a lot of time developing or tweaking patches'? (Looks like you guys have already built up an extensive community library so maybe that's not an issue either...)
In case it's not clear, I'm not asking for a list of niggles and frustrations - all systems have those. I'm just wondering what stops everyone from selling all their hardware sound sources, deleting all their VSTs and just replacing it all with half a dozen Axolotis!?
Realistically and seriously, what kinds of things can't Axoloti do? What kinds of reason do I have for hanging onto my Rev2, my 0 Coast, and 5 or 6 other boxes? And 6 months from now, will I still covet other items on my GAS list, such as aforementioned DRM1, or a Lifeforms SV-1?

thetechnobear 2018-09-07 21:02:04 UTC #2

there is no catch - axoloti does what it says on the tin (or rather the specs )

and its great you are enjoy it!

could you replace everything with it, errr probably not...
(for reasons you have already stated really)

this is kind of true... and something that is easy to underestimate.
many hardware synths, and vsts are hugely complex things, that have take a long time to develop by experienced developers - so for you to do the same too, would naturally take a long time.

and of course, if you don't have the skill set of these developers, then you'll need to learn too...

sure, if your plans include things that have already been developed, either in the factory or community library, then this helps - but DSP is a large area, not everything is available, and also you might feel it needs tweaking.
AND you need to know how to combine and use these things.

well axoloti is a microcontroller, so this has limitations (as per spec), its a 168Mhz arm processor, with 8gb of sdram - this is pretty powerful in itself, as this is all focused on your patch, but this is orders of magnitudes less powerful that your desktop/laptop.

for sure, you could buy multiple boards, but some 'operations' are indivisible (you cannot spread across boards) e.g. FFT

(but to give some 'context' to this... Axoloti uses the STM32F4 microcontroller this is the same chip as used by mutable instruments in both clouds and elements - two of the most popular eurorack modules !)

so this is analog, which some like the sound of... and analog modelling is really computationally expensive.
can you do something 'close enough' on axoloti?
well only you know... nothing is right or wrong, its what you like

now none of this I see as negatives , or a catch...

in fact, id say the more you understand/accept/appreciate the limitations - the easier it is to appreciate axoloti's many strengths.

its amazing to see what many have here have done with axoloti - and also the diversity of what they have done too.

also the key for me, for axoloti, is it can be what you want it to be... its not about replicating something else that exists, rather creating something of your own, with the features you think are important, rather than another synth designer.
( I also personally find it quite educational, I get a better feeling for why things are designed the way they are)

anyway, have fun, and happy patching !

MattilynMattroe 2018-09-09 12:10:12 UTC #3

I've been using axoloti for 2/3 months and I haven't found a catch yet! It really is a great platform. I too was amazed at what you can get out of this little board for the price of a guitar pedal. I almost immediately bought 2 more. It won't be for everyone, it takes time and effort to get to know the platform. But the possibilities seem endless.

I'm currently working on a computer free set up, currently it's 3 axolotis - one running a sample based drum machine with live input sequencer, one running 2 simple mono synths with step sequencers, and the last running a simple poly synth with a 2 track step sequencer. To put all that together with other hardware would cost a lot more, even when factoring in midi controllers for the axolotis. And it works EXACTLY as I want it to, with features rarely found in off the shelf hardware, like I can hit a button on one that saves all settings on all three machines.

I did have to scale back my ideas for the audio side of things - the synths and drum machines are pretty simple to allow me to squeeze more out of the sequencing, to add things like knob automation. But I'm going to get more axolotis to spread the load (I think two more should cover me for what I want to do). I'm already pretty close to doing everything I was using Ableton for in a live jam scenario. It won't replace my existing hardware - I'll be integrating my synths and effects pedals at some point, and because the axoloti is so flexible I'll be able to integrate them exactly as I want.

It's also given my usb midi controllers a new lease of life, I can use them easily with hardware now without needing a computer to host them.

It has been fustrating at times, putting the patches together, hitting a lot of dead ends (which I usually solve eventually). But I actually enjoy the puzzle of putting a complicated patch together.

axoman 2018-09-09 13:00:00 UTC #4

Have to disagree with Mark and Mattilyn, there is a catch, it's called Axo Addiction!

Early symptoms include forgetting to eat and sleep, and going to bed when you should be getting up. More advanced symptoms include prolonged exposure to your Axo while completely blocking off the world around you. Critical symptoms include actually licking the terminals of your Axo out of sheer adoration, which is something you should never do no matter how tempted, as it will short your Axo!

MattilynMattroe 2018-09-09 13:54:43 UTC #5

Ha! That all sounds strangely familiar

chaocrator 2018-09-09 17:24:41 UTC #6

cool ) i thought about laptop-free setup too, but it would take too long to implement all sequencer features i need, so i decided to build a multitimbral synth from a few Axolotis first.

Axohoop 2018-09-09 19:58:36 UTC #7

So much food for thought.. thanks!
@thetechnobear - two really big points there: 1) yes it's teaching me a lot about synthesis generally and 2) spot on with the point about not replicating something that already exists but creating something that this format lends itself to which would be difficult or impossible to do otherwise. That is always the approach I try to take - 'What can this thing do that nothing else can'. (Loads more you have said that is really useful and resonant, but those two points stood out).
@MattilynMattroe - yeah that's exactly the kind of set-up I was imagining, but I have a Pyramid and Digitakt that I envisaged doing the sequencing with (as well as midi 'effects' like arpegiation and automation) which might free the Axos resources up to do more in the way of ambitious sound design. Plus, I love my 'Takt and Pyramid for their own respetive uniqueness. Interested to hear whether you are using some kind of casings? I see there is a whole thread on the subject and I will be checking that out. Although, in my imagination I have already 'designed' a slot based housing for multiple Axos with a single power supply and midi in/out connectors (although I am a big believer in one output per sound module, so would keep separate audio in/outs). In such a scenario, it might also help to have some kind of switching or routing mechanism so you could switch between different Axo boards when programming with Patcher. I don't have the technical skills to realize this myself, but perhaps it is possible...
I will be dredging this forum for opinions on Midi controllers as well. I can see different approaches being appropriate to the different configurations.
@axoman - Axo Addiction probably 'healthier' than spending vast sums on Eurorack modules! (Although the latter still lurks on the horizon...)
@chaocrator - Haven't had it long, but I can't recommend Squarp Pyramid highly enough as a computer-free sequencer. Helps to have a midi keyboard as well, but the Pyramid does live and step polyphonic recording (ideal for your multi-timbral, multi Axo set-up?) and has a really good Euclidian pattern feature (3 or 4 layer patterns on different tracks going to the same channel/instrument is frankly outrageous), arps, lfos and bags of other goodies.

thetechnobear 2018-09-09 20:04:00 UTC #8

another +1 on the squarp pyramid from me - really well thought out sequencer, and nice UI

chaocrator 2018-09-10 08:08:57 UTC #9

wow!
what i like from the start — „64 polyphonic tracks, unlimited number of notes & automation, up to 2048 patterns per project“.
that's something different from all those 80s-style 8-track machines commonly accosiated with „hardware sequencer“.
will read the manual right now. if it can do step skipping & step probability — i definitely need this machine.
and the price is OK, it's barely the price of my live mixer/recorder.
update: it even handles polyrhythms natively. loving this box, thank you dudes for pointing at it.

MattilynMattroe 2018-09-10 10:02:32 UTC #10

Man, I would love a pyramid, very cool machine. Would be amazing with a few axolotis!

@Axohoop I bought some little wooden cases off ebay (I imagine the seller is probably on the forum) to put them in for the moment. Once i've figured out my patches properly I'm gonna start looking at putting them all in one case and adding controls. For the time being I'm using midi controllers for control and it's working really well - a launchpad mini, a launch control xl, and an mpd232

chaocrator 2018-09-10 13:37:09 UTC #11

will require one more MIDI interface.
which is acceptable, but i would like to connect Axolotis directly, so only one of them would act as MIDI interface for all „cluster“.
hope this will be possible someday.

hehe ) Launchpad Pro, two iRigPads and Novation ReMOTE Zero XL here.
i'm also planning to add dedicated Axoloti boards to do extra MIDI processing at least for Novation Nova Laptop and PreenFM2, and one of my 2 Axolotis already does that for hardware drum module (since i'm a drummer).

thetechnobear 2018-09-10 17:48:11 UTC #12

the blokas midihub is looking interesting for this...

with this you could attach quite a few axoloti to the pyramid ( 5 if my maths is right), and that doesn't include using any kind of soft midi thru on axoloti.

Ive been accepted as part of beta program, so this is something I'm going to be testing.

this is good news, as means hopefully I'll spend sometime setting up the axoloti(s) instant on use with the pyramid.

(need to decide on how to mix, lots of separate outputs is nice, but also means lots of cables to the mixer )

dreamer 2018-09-10 19:34:20 UTC #13

I think you mean '8mb'

chaocrator 2018-09-10 21:42:58 UTC #14

one of those tiny passive mixers available on the market?
per-Axoloti volume control can be done in Axolotis themselves, so passive summing is enough for most cases.
actually, multiple outputs are for stricty multitimbral usage, that's why synths of the golden virtual analog era had them.

thetechnobear 2018-09-11 08:12:29 UTC #15

ah, you've got the old v1.x model then

oops, yeah, I meant mb , don't often think of megabytes these days, easy slip to make!

yeah, that could be a way to do it... basically use them as a submix.

seems it would also be easy to build one....which might work nicely, if I put a couple of axolotis in a case and hardwired them.

hmm, definitely worth considering.

…. hmm, a good example for OP, of how we all end up getting totally distracted by axoloti

chaocrator 2018-09-11 08:18:02 UTC #16

i thought about exactly the same.
and for MIDI connections too.

i don't think so. we're talking about Axoloti-based ecosystem )
and it's inevitable due to general Axoloti's construction kit-style.

jaffasplaffa 2018-09-11 09:20:37 UTC #17

@thetechnobear you are in beta program for the blokas midihub?

Have been looking for something like this for a while;
- A midi device where you can remap midi channels & ports, which probably also means BLOCK midi channels.

i have another midihub with 1 in, 6 outs, which is decent, but the problem is all the outputs are send on the same port. So if you are sending a midi messages to ONE machine on midi channel one, it will send the same midi messages to ALL the other machines at the same time, which means they will be burdened with unnecessary messages, which they are not even using.

On top of that you would also have to mute those parts on the other synths that are not supposed to play those midi notes, it quickly got pretty complciated setting it up. Like if you send some midi notes to an Axoloti on channel one, it will also send it to al the other machines midi channel one and create an overflow of midi messages.

So this is most welcome and high on the list here

thetechnobear 2018-09-11 10:51:47 UTC #18

yes, it should arrive this week

yeah unlike a 'dumb' midi splitter, you can change up how everything is routed thru the midihub, so it can act as a midi merger , or spitter or some kind of mixture.... and also do other midi processing.

I think the closest thing to it is the BomeBox
my issues with the BomeBox, is it only had 1 midi din in/out, and was not a usb midi device, but had the advantage of usb midi host support (which midihub does not)

the midihub is easier to program too, currently doesn't have as many 'modifiers' as the bomebox, but blokas no doubt will add more over time , as firmware is upgradable.

the other thing, I'm looking forward to is, as it is usb midi device, I can also use it as a USB midi to MIDI DIN splitter for the Organelle.

anyway, hopefully by the weekend I'll start to get a feel of how its working out.

(p.s. theres no talk yet of price, but the pisound is very reasonably priced, so hopefully midihub will be too)

chaocrator 2018-09-11 11:06:27 UTC #19

my exuses etc, but someone should do it.

jaffasplaffa 2018-09-11 14:19:12 UTC #20

Yeah that was my next question

Guess we have to wait a bit for that, but the product looks promising