Next-gen and mini Axoloti hardware discussion

[axoman]

BTW, Urklang, I don't want attacking by a mob of angry Axo fanatics who were expecting a new board only for it to be delayed by a format change, so I'm not suggesting that you drop what you have already prepared and change it. I'm just hoping you consider the idea for future incarnations of the board.

I really do think it is the deal solution.

[Gavin]

Just for the record, my soldering skills are crap too, but I won't be defeated by four audio plugs, nor climb a mountain to try and have them removed.
Axoman's support of Ersatz suggestion is futile because Urklang has already mentioned he is designing it so shield like modules can be created and added, this has been his goal all along and is well documented in this thread, but has also decided that having four audio jacks added is not a big deal, and as much as I like using dev boards, I really don't think it is a big deal either. I could think of allot worse things that could be added to dev boards.

[axoman]

Axoman's support of Ersatz suggestion is futile because Urklang has already mentioned he is designing it so shield like modules can be created and added ...

It's not the same thing, because the main board is still populated with jacks. Ersatz suggestion wins for all situations, not just one. We already have a jack-populated board with Johannes, and with Urklang's that makes two jack-populated boards.

There are no unpopulated boards, yet Ersatz suggestion would provide for both scenarios. Like I said, I'm very critical, brutally so when needs be, and I honestly cannot fault it, cause no jacks would be populating anything unless the shield was attached.

That is not so with Urklang's board. You would be able to have perhaps a shield added, but you will be adding it to a board that is already populated with jacks. In the event you pick-up a board without the jacks, then there is still that ugly "place holder" thing where the jacks should be. In technical terms it does not matter one little bit, it just looks incomplete. But Ersatz suggestion would not suffer from that, because there would be no placeholder areas on the board.

I understand why people would think I'm being picky, but placeholders look ugly, incomplete, and repurposed. Fine for personal use, but not so acceptable to those wanting to use it as a commercial component inside their own products.

[axoman]

... that said, again, my post on the subject has triggered a lot more discussion on the topic than expected. My apologies but I cannot control the flow of conversation, and to be honest, it makes no difference to me any way. I already accepted long ago that it looks as if I will need to roll my own board.

Urklang's board exists and comes so close to preventing the need to do that, while on the other hand, Ersatz suggestion does not exist despite it being the better solution. It's a damn frustrating situation, but thankfully one that can be fixed either way.

[Woodinblack]

I don't think the Audio jacks are necessary, but with this being the only thing questionable, its almost insignificant, especially if it is a benefit to others straight out of the box.

Five minutes of de-soldering isn't going to bother me any.

He has already said that he would supply a version without the audio jacks, so you don't even need the 5 minutes of desoldering, just buy the jackless version.

[Blindsmyth]

I think that a person who doesn't like soldering is not the target for this product. They will buy boxes that are made that incorporate this module in them. Of course this is the makers choice. If I was the maker of this module, I would offer it in a connectionless version, and sell "shield" like modules that would provide the common connector types people would ask for. The solder haters would have to pay a little more of course.

I don't think that's true, there is plenty of people that are confident in max, pure data, reaktor etc or are a good at writing code but that never used a soldering iron in there live. For all those people axoloti could be an entry point to making there own hardware. And yes if you really wanna go that road you'll need to leardn soldering but I think the entrypoint should be as easy as possible.

In this discussion you should not forget also that people (including me) are lazy. I have a teensy at home but I never used it because there is an accumulation of little hurdles: You need to solder pin headers to both the board and the audio shield, then stack them together, then there you still have to write code to use it etc.
So again, make the entry point easy and then give possibilties to grow. This is what I see realized with the current design!

Axoloti on the contrary is plug and play, you can use it right out of the box and it works without seeing a single line of code. And I'm happy it will stay like that.

True, but you have to admit that there is no better format than header pins that can accept breadboard wires while you tinker, and, can then be switched for a ribbon cable when you want something more permanent and elegant. The icing on the cake of course, is that a commercial developer would likely attach to the board using such a fitment anyway - ribbon onto header pins. Take a look inside any synth from Korg, Roland, Yamaha etc, they often use this connection type to connect drives to boards, keybeds to boards, and even boards to boards. I suppose, understandably, it has become industry standard practice because it is such a versatile, solid and dependable format of connection. I can say without any doubt, that it most certainly will be used inside my own products if they ever see the light of day.

Yes pin headers are the best! BUT if you look into commercial products you might find an stm32. But you will never find it as an development board with thousands of little shields attached with ribbon cables.

You are much more likely to find the processor and components on one board, sometimes connectors and controll elements (displays, pots etc.) are on a second board. So if you wanna match the standart of professional hardware you will have to redesign everything anyway.
As a matter of fact I know hardware makers that use axoloti for prototyping but they would never use it in the final product, even if it was reduced board.
1. because of what I'm pointing out up here: you want as few pcbs as possible
2. you reduce your margin if you have to buy the brain of your system from someone else

Urklang's board exists and comes so close to preventing the need to do that, while on the other hand, Ersatz suggestion does not exist despite it being the better solution. It's a damn frustrating situation, but thankfully one that can be fixed either way.

This might be the perfect solution for you but not for everyone. Your "better" is just subjective depending on on your needs and preferences.
Where is your limit of "unpopulated"? It was already brought up here, even the teensy has a usb port and some people based on there needs and preferences might even want this port gone.

So no matter what choice you make, it is never the choice for everyone. Me personally I'm happy with this choice and I don't see so much how loosing a few mm of space for some mini jacks, that as pointed out here you can leave unsoldered is such a big issue.

EDIT: Of course I see that from a certain perspective, these couple of mm that you loose through unpopulated jacks can make a difference, but as I pointed out that is just one perspective.

[axoman]

I just want to clarify what we're talking about here, cause it kinda sounds as if people are being protective of Urklang, as if something is being taken away from his efforts.

Please bear in mind that all Ersatz has done is suggest a different format for the board, and all I have done is praise it for being a "better" format. I'm just going to have to risk sounding blatantly arrogant here and tell you all that by "better", I really do mean better, and I do mean for everyone, not just myself!

Do the current board designs act as a commercially viable board without any population whatsoever, not even a power jack?

No.

Do the current board designs allow you to convert from a commercially viable unpopulated board, to a fully home user-ready Axoloti board that is populated with jacks?

No.

Do the current boards allow you to do either of these things, nevermind both, and at the same time, do so without even having to solder or desolder?

No.

The solution suggested by Ersatz is therefore superior by design. This does not detract anything whatsoever from what Urklang and indeed Johannes have achieved with their boards. It is simply a suggestion for a much better way to format and produce the magnificent product that they have created for us.

No matter how hard one tries to find one, there are no benefits to the formats used by Johannes and Urklang in their boards when compared to the format suggested by Ersatz.

There simply are none, the format is perfect, so please be happy

[jaffasplaffa]

Since the designs that these extremely skilled people are doing, are not up to par with your needs, no one is hindering you from making your own Axoloti revision, with exactly the specifications that you need. No one are forcing you to buy it.

I am extremely happy with @urklang's effort and I can't wait to get my hands on it. That's just how life is, when other people are designing the electronics that you use, you sometimes have to accept compromises. If you won't accept that, build your own.

[jaffasplaffa]

It has nothing to do with trolling, it's just reality:

If you don't like it, don't buy it or design your own. It is a well ment suggestion. There are always compromises in pretty much any choices in life.

[jaffasplaffa]

For what must be the sixth time now, I already expect to have to roll my own board, so has it sunk in this time? Did you comprehend at all, the meaning of that statement?

But why don't you just do it then? I think everyone understood what you want, but you should accept that what you want is not necessarily the goal that the developer of this board has.

[jaffasplaffa]

Sorry, did you actually just tell me, yet again, to design my own?
For the seventh time now: I already expect to roll my own board.

Instead of writing here, just design the board and get on with it. Actions speaks louder than words!

Happy designing!

[jaffasplaffa]

I am just encouraging you to do what you are talking about, as the developer of this board obviously has other plans.

It has nothing to do with attacking. Erzats only made one or two posts about it and he has not at any point mentioned that he is going to develop his own board.

You could make your own thread about the board you want to design?

Anyway, wish you a great evening. I look forward to see what you come up with at some point.

[Paulus]

Unfortunately, there is no debate here anymore.
Being outspoken is a good thing, but it just does not help you or serve your goal when there is only aggression and gesticulating.
I feel sad for this community and especially for Urklang...

[system]

This topic is temporarily closed for 4 hours due to a large number of community flags.

[thetechnobear]

[thetechnobear]

Sorry, i didn’t realize it had escalated.
All sorted now , hope we can get back on topic.

[Woodinblack]

So how are things looking for pre-order being done before the end of the year as we are down to the last few weeks, some of which are taken with holidays for some.

[timeorspace]

I'm really happy with the work @urklang as been doing and think its wonderful. I understand everyone has their own wants and needs... desires... But in true Axoloti fashion let it become. Chill.

[SmashedTransistors]

There is two kinds of needs, the Axoloti is midway between them.

• A ready to use module à la micro modular, a small metal box with knobs, buttons and a little display.
• A board, à la teensy, for makers.

[Woodinblack]

I think there are as many needs as there are users.
I would be happy with an axoloti with updated hardware, but happy to get whatever is going to modify to my needs.