My Axoloti Plan

strum 2019-04-09 11:42:14 UTC #45

Thanks for you interest,

I lost interest in Axoloti after discovering VCV rack

And also being frustrated with the audio quality, the inability to re-patch on the fly, the negative response of the project to suggestions for improvement, the fundamental design problems with the original hardware and software and no plan for any of the issues to be fixed in a future release of the board.

VCV rack does pretty much everything that I was using axoloti to do and more and though it's not a stand alone device, it's more useful and interesting to me than Axoloti.

Due to the poor audio quality and lack of robustness axoloti is only a toy as a stand alone synth anyway, not usable in a professional setting as DSP or synth.

I hope you get some use out of yours but suggest you have a look at rack and see how you find it.

Cheers

lokki 2019-04-09 14:13:18 UTC #46

while everybody is entitled to their own opinion, i think it is a little harsh to call axoloti just a toy. the audio quality is also not bad per se, depends on a lot of factors and what you want to do with it. i for one use it because i explicitly don't want a computer on stage, so vcvrack is out of scope for me.

weasel79 2019-04-09 17:44:55 UTC #47

Thanks for getting back, if there's anything you did for VCV on the web i'd be happy if you send me a link! i am not attracted at all by hardware modular racks though so the VCV doesn't do anything for me. Plus getting standalone, away from the computer is one of the biggest features of the axo for me.

And then while a lot of criticism axoloti is facing is justified i think calling the audio quality not usable kinda makes your whole argument seem bitter and unfounded. i work as a music producer full time since decades now and while i'm not all happy with the axoloti i still know it's the best option for me right now to build the synth of my dreams in "more than decent" audio quality. it's no burl converters but if you make music and not science the s/n ratio, dithering and other issues can 100% be neglected. The D/A and signal path quality is up to par with at least 75%. of all commercial synths out there. And there'sno MS-20 noise, no unwanted OSC bleed etc etc etc. Give me about 12 months and i'll guarantee you'll hear my axo synth on the radio. For whatever that means to you..

strum 2019-04-09 19:16:58 UTC #48

A synth you can't repatch on the fly is no synth at all.

The poor signal level may work for some as a synth, but having unbuffered unclamped input to the audio codec is perhaps the stupidist piece of electronics design i have ever seen.

In it's current state it is utterly useless as a dsp, which is what i bought it to use for.

strum 2019-04-09 19:21:01 UTC #49

@weasel79 , I don't listen to the radio so there is zero chance of that.

I made a bunch of modules for Rack, the mental set, which included the first stereo mixer with auxiliary sends and returns but they have been largely superseded since though. check them out if you are using rack.

jaffasplaffa 2019-04-09 20:15:20 UTC #50

How do you define repatch? You can store patch banks on the SD-card and switch between them, if that's what you mean?

I agree on this part. It is a little bit annoying that it cant do line level. Though I saw someone who made an attachment for Axo on youtube, where you could feed it line level and it would turn the level down for the input and then on the out put turn the level up again. But yeah, its a work around.

I also agree that the quality could be better. Dont know if its the DAC or what it is that makes the sound of Axoloti sound a bit thin. This has been discussed very intensely in here many times, hehe

About VCV Rack:
I also wrote a good bunch of modules for VCV, but stopped just before 0.6 was released.
I think it is a bit too heavy for the computer. It uses waaay to many resources on user interface. So I dropped it.
Pure Data is probably what I like the most. Its very light and offers so much options, endless options

strum 2019-04-09 20:41:53 UTC #51

@jaffasplaffa thin sound is right , that it has been and continues to be discussed is a clear sign it's a problem, and there seems to be zero interest in admitting it's a problem or a planned board revision to fix it.

This is part of why the project has basically died.

Yes VCV is very resource heavy and i've come to the limit of my computer with it but it's still miles better than axo.

by re patch i mean the ability to add and remove modules from a patch and to change connections between modules without having to reboot the board, what sort of idiot designs software like that?

That and the rubbish analog side of the board were such a huge let down when I got axo and i had assigned it to the toy box within 20 minutes of my first session with it.

jaffasplaffa 2019-04-09 20:59:14 UTC #52

Believe me, when I first brought it up I was not a popular person. I just like to talk open about things, and some people don't. Obviously that will create some arguments.

As you say there is a problem somewhere, what it is, I am not good enough coder to find out.

I dont remember why it is like that but is has been up a few times before and that rationale did make sense in some way. I just dont remember what it was.

All things a side I have learned a lot from Axoloti. I like the way that one can patch with objects and code at the same time. it is very good for learning. All the bit shifting has driven me nuts a few times, but yeah, I guess the reason it is like that is to save resources. Which I like. I dont like VCV because it spends too much resources on the visual side and since it is an audio app, that just dont make a lot of sense to me to use so many resources for visual stuff.

Pure Data is almost perfect for me, hehe I love that software

urklang 2019-04-09 21:11:57 UTC #53

@strum is obviously a troll with little constructive to say. We really should ignore him, but I'm too tempted to have fun and rant a bit here. "perhaps the stupidist piece of electronics design i have ever seen" A comment like this serves absolutely no purpose and does nothing but reveal ignorance. VCV Rack and Axoloti have completely different goals; it obviously makes no sense to compare them in a such a simplistic way and declare one to be "professional" and the other a "toy." Both are simply mechanisms for executing DSP code to generate audio. One happens to run on an embedded system. The other requires a desktop system with a proper soundcard. The sound is largely a function of what DSP algorithms are running. If you don't like the sound as is, write some code to do something else. At least an embedded system is isolated from all the complexity of the host machine audio stack. Achieving low latency in Rack and in any other standard desktop audio application can be challenging. Again they are completely different approaches. To me it is toy-like to limit yourself to an 1:1 skeumorphic UI emulation of Eurorack. At least Axoloti attempts to offer abstraction mechanisms inside itself and be extensible like an actual programming language. The whole "toy" vs "pro" thing is such bullshit honestly. Who cares? They are meaningless buzzwords.

Offer concrete suggestions for improvement. Offer actual code or hardware designs. Offer something other than empty, vague criticism.

strum 2019-04-09 21:40:17 UTC #54

@urklang, triggered fanboys gonna fanboy.

You butthurt you've wasted the time you've investing in a dead project?

Also, if i had designs and code, why would i share them with people who have no plan for the future of the project and have repeatedly shown their refusal to accept any criticism or suggestions for improvement?

Why would I invest my time working on designs or code for a project that has rejected every single criticism or suggestion i have made?

weasel79 2019-04-09 22:01:16 UTC #55

wow i am sorry i brought you back here haha.

A synth you can't repatch on the fly is no synth at all.

what sort of idiot

toy box

fanboys

butthurt

man you are one bitter, miserable and aggressive person. and on top of that you don't even make sense you're just trolling for no reason. i won't feed that no more and try go into the arguments you are trying to make.

lokki 2019-04-09 22:25:46 UTC #56

name one digital hardware synth that you can repatch. (not just create presets). bonus if it only costs 60 euro or the like.

SmashedTransistors 2019-04-09 22:27:58 UTC #57

The clavia modulars !... they don't make them anymore and you won't find them second hand for 60€.

But beware of the G2, firmware above 1.40 is unstable.

lokki 2019-04-09 22:29:55 UTC #58

on the fly? nice, did not know that! i always assumed you had to "compile" the patch somehow as well.

BrianA 2019-04-09 22:36:38 UTC #59

If Axo is so amateur, why are you wasting your time festering this forum with your drivel? I really can't fathom what you hope to gain slamming the design(ers) and users like this.

SmashedTransistors 2019-04-09 22:52:15 UTC #60

Yes, I guess that on the Clavia Modulars there is no compilation. The instantiation of the modules and the connections can be done on the fly. It is really impressive considering this was done 20 years ago with Motorola 56k DSPs !

What i really like with the Axoloti is that it is very reliable (if you don't go above 80% cpu, way more reliable than Clavia G2!) and has little latency (compared with VSTs), the programming model is a bliss for me. For the record, I had more digital artefacts on the G2 audio outputs than with the Axoloti.

Even so, I am quite worried about the future of the Axoloti as there is absolutely no communication from @johannes those times and no activity on github since december, i guess that he has a "main job" and priorities others than the Axoloti, like most of us... but i have no idea of what's going on. I hope he is doing well.

With this uncertainty, I am less eager to promote the Axoloti than I was one year ago and tell to friends "Yeah, come to the Axoloti, it is a great project with a great community".
Sure that's true, but i have no view on the future and thus it is difficult for me to tell synthesis enthusiasts to join the Axoloti community (and there is a lot of synth enthusiasts and designers in France !).

Nevertheless I will present some Axoloti based "synth toys" at the french Synthfest in Nantes (June) but without perspective i'm reluctant to make an Axoloti workshop (as I planned to do).

SmashedTransistors 2019-04-09 23:05:19 UTC #61

There is a monophonic demo that can run on a PC (as standalone) that is conform to what you have with a G2.
see the bottom of the web page
https://www.nordkeyboards.com/downloads/legacy/nord-modular-g2

strum 2019-04-10 03:17:03 UTC #62

@BrianA, because someone asked.

strum 2019-04-10 03:22:23 UTC #63

@weasel79, says who?

If you have a problem with expressive language then that is your problem mate.

Plenty of people agree with my criticisms though perhaps they express them differently, I am Australian mate, we are born shitposters, it's just the way we speak.

Instead of attacking me personally why not try to accept and understand why it is the project has died hey?

lokki 2019-04-10 06:15:23 UTC #64

i am with you on that. i am frustrated/worried as well, and as you i stopped "promoting" axoloti to other potential users, because i just don't know if it will continue to exist. i wrote @johannes a couple of PMs but never got an answer. it would be VERY appreciated if he could chime in and just make some statement. maybe he has lost interest, found a main job etc. but just tell people what is going on. maybe he is working on a major revamp of the whole thing, planned secretly on his home machine without GitHub? (wishful thinking i guess) one way or the other, communication would be the key here...so @johannes, PLEASE let us know!!!